A few screenshots of what the E-11 does so we can get a lower limit on its power.
next 2 frames.
2 more frames later.
Observation shows a grenade like explosion on impact. Since plasma doesn't act like this nor does it dump its energy into a person, the E-11 is not a pure plasma weapon. However, it is not a projectile weapon as they don't recoil or the Empire has the tech to cancel somewhat of inertia. Thus the E-11 is a hybrid particle/plasma weapon like turbolasers.
Now lets see how strong an E-11 bolt is.
3 frames later.
3 frames later.
Now assuming Storm Trooper Armor is your stock Flak Jacket, since we don't know what Stormies' armor is made of, but we do know what Flak Jackets are made of, we can gain a lower limit of how powerful the E-11 is. Note, lower limit doesn't mean absolute lowest setting. It just tells us how much energy at a minimum caused that hole in the Storm Trooper's breastplate.
Judging by the pixels, that hole is about 3inchs in diameter. Since it was a frontal shot we can rule out small caliber weapons which make large exit wounds. I say this stormie was hit with the equivalent of a 20mm cannon round, which is an Aircraft weapon, not a small arms weapon. The E-11 is not something you want to get hit with on lethal setting.
Next post I'll show what this baby does to walls.
-- Edited by Darth Tom at 22:45, 2006-09-18
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Stormtrooper armour (pulls out SW Essential Guide to Characters)
In theory, the armour forms an antiblaster cocoon, though the number of blasted troopers in the galaxy belies that "fact".
Not terribly forthcoming... but let's think about this for a second. Blasters are somewhere between laser and plasma weapons, based on how they work, and are energy weapons either way. The best way to deal with any weapon's fire is to spread the impact - modern day kevlar is designed to spread the impact of a bullet, and hence reduce the deceleration and force. In this case, it is possible to literally spread the impact - it is arguable that that large blast hole is in fact the impact being spread over the armour, while the flash is some of the blast being reflected off.
Look at it another way: if each E-11 shot has the power of a 20mm cannon, how come all we see if a shot hits a wall is a bit of charring?
And a third point: Endor. If the E-11 is so powerful, why didn't the rebels use them to hammer the AT-STs instead of having to rely on Ewok traps and Chewie's comandeering abilities? Yes, I agree that an AT-ST would be well armoured against infantry weapons, but a 20mm cannon is a fairly hefty piece of kit. It might not be capable of getting through a tank's armour, but judging by the AT-ST's poor resilience against falling damage/crushing damage, I doubt that it has that kind of protection. Projectile weapons aren't common on a small-arms basis, but Plex-2M missiles are far from a rarity against vehicles and combat speeders.
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Basilisk9466 wrote: Nice argument there, but I beg to differ...
Stormtrooper armour (pulls out SW Essential Guide to Characters)
In theory, the armour forms an antiblaster cocoon, though the number of blasted troopers in the galaxy belies that "fact".
BGTom I'll answer till you get off work. Depends on what they are being hit with, these canon proofs tell us something about the power needed to penetrate Storm Trooper armor.
Rebels are stated in the EGW&T to carry heavy blaster pistols in order to allow them to "reliably" penetrate stormtrooper armor. In the opening scene of ANH we see Leia's guard carrying just those. Even so according to the ANH novelization, many of those Troopers survived.
- The SWSB says that Stormtrooper armor "can not stop a heavy blaster bolt" (it also says "no known armor can stop a full power blaster bolt", but it doesn't quantify how powerful " a full power bolt" is supposed to be). Then again modern Kevlar can not stop AK-47 rounds which can reliably penetrate phase three kevlar plate. It does make the wound survivable.
Basilisk9466 wrote: The best way to deal with any weapon's fire is to spread the impact - modern day kevlar is designed to spread the impact of a bullet, and hence reduce the deceleration and force. In this case, it is possible to literally spread the impact - it is arguable that that large blast hole is in fact the impact being spread over the armour, while the flash is some of the blast being reflected off.
Look at it another way: if each E-11 shot has the power of a 20mm cannon, how come all we see if a shot hits a wall is a bit of charring?
Storm Trooper Armor does the same thing, but there is a limit to how much energy can be spread out. If the shot is too powerful it just ignores the armor completely.
The Flash, however, can not be a reflection as reflections do not smoke or throw sparks as you can see in those pictures. As for the Walls BGTom will handle that when posts the E-11s damage to walls.
Basilisk9466 wrote: And a third point: Endor. If the E-11 is so powerful, why didn't the rebels use them to hammer the AT-STs instead of having to rely on Ewok traps and Chewie's comandeering abilities? Yes, I agree that an AT-ST would be well armoured against infantry weapons, but a 20mm cannon is a fairly hefty piece of kit. It might not be capable of getting through a tank's armour, but judging by the AT-ST's poor resilience against falling damage/crushing damage, I doubt that it has that kind of protection. Projectile weapons aren't common on a small-arms basis, but Plex-2M missiles are far from a rarity against vehicles and combat speeders.
Actually its far more complex than that. The Rebel troops with the weapons needed got pinned down rather quickly by Storm Troopers and Han and Leia got boxed into the entrance "porch" rather quickly. Thus they were suspressed from being a threat.
Now for the AT-ST, it actually showed surprising resilience against crushing blows. Remember the Ewok catapults. Mike Blackburn can explain the best way. When struck by catapult fire from a primitive Ewok weapon, the AT-ST's cabin section clearly displaced significantly to the side, to help the walker absorb and dissipate the effects of the impact. The amount of force transferred by such weapons to the walker decreases exponentially as the amount of time involved in the impact increases. This will not allow the walker to shrug off the effects of weapons that fire very powerful, high velocity ammunition such as the ones used in most modern tanks, but it will easily allow it to shrug off small arms fire or catapult shots. One of the few factors that each of the destroyed AT-ST's at Endor had in common was that each of them had been subjected to an impact in which the walker could not shift its cabin section to help absorb the impact. In the case of the logs, the other log would have prevented such a movement. In the case of the AT-ST that fell to the ground, it could not effectively raise itself off the ground with its legs perpendicular to the proper angle for doing so. In the case of the walker destroyed by weapons fire from another walker, its armor was overwhelmed and the walker was destroyed without ever shifting, as evidenced by the fact that the drive section of the walker remained upright, even after the cabin had been completely destroyed.
So in order to bring down the AT-STs the Ewoks had to prevent displacement of the cabin. Once the Ewoks figured that out, they had resounding success. But, the tide only turned when Chewie took over an AT-ST and kept his IFF tuned to Imperial channels. Then he infiltrated the Imperial's line of advance and rolled up the opposition.
With the exception of the Grate all shots are consistent with a 20mm or greater round going off which establishes our lower limit.
The Grate which was wide enough to fit Chewie throughis most likely our upper limit on its power as the bars were vaporised. Darn, my lunch break is almost over. I'll finish this later.
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What is it with soldiers wives that makes them mindless jingoistic retards? Guess what I was a soldier and I don't blindly follow government foreign policy. Sit down, shut up and engage your brain. (Cpl. Kendall)
Actually I'd say the grate is indictive of a greater power setting than that which cratered the walls at Cloud City or the breastplate of the Stormtroopers. Note the size of the hole in the grate compared to the size of the hole in the Stormtrooper breastplate. Forcomparison I'll use a weapon I'm familiar with, the 25mm Bushmaster cannon mounted on the Canadian LAVIII. The two standard rounds wouldn't make a hole that big, one being designed to focus it's power in a small area to penetrate AFV armor and the other is a high explosive round with a secondaryfunction of creating fragments. Neither could be expected to create such a large hole. Rather a thermite charge spread out over the grate and then detonated is what I would expect to see from modern weapons in this instance.
I think what we're seeing in ANH is a seperate power setting from the E-11 specifically designed to penetrate and destroy metal, rather like the scene where the Stormtroopers blast through the lift in the prison.
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Cpl_Kendall wrote: Actually I'd say the grate is indictive of a greater power setting than that which cratered the walls at Cloud City or the breastplate of the Stormtroopers. Note the size of the hole in the grate compared to the size of the hole in the Stormtrooper breastplate. Forcomparison I'll use a weapon I'm familiar with, the 25mm Bushmaster cannon mounted on the Canadian LAVIII. The two standard rounds wouldn't make a hole that big, one being designed to focus it's power in a small area to penetrate AFV armor and the other is a high explosive round with a secondaryfunction of creating fragments. Neither could be expected to create such a large hole. Rather a thermite charge spread out over the grate and then detonated is what I would expect to see from modern weapons in this instance.
I think what we're seeing in ANH is a seperate power setting from the E-11 specifically designed to penetrate and destroy metal, rather like the scene where the Stormtroopers blast through the lift in the prison.
Thats what I was getting to when I had to head back to work. Oh well
The important thing, however, is that we learn and ask questions. Which is why I recommended you Basilisk9466. You have doubt and if you aren't getting it, lowly John Q poster is probably not getting it either.
__________________
What is it with soldiers wives that makes them mindless jingoistic retards? Guess what I was a soldier and I don't blindly follow government foreign policy. Sit down, shut up and engage your brain. (Cpl. Kendall)
Hmmm. the grate, when hit at an angle, doesnt have as much material to be hammered than a wall, which is solid.Would explain a few things aswell. plus, its width is acceptable. this might be a solution.
plus, back to the armour factor, what if the hole is very small and the back spot it just burnt armour? like if you flame a wall, it will leave black residue. i couldn't tell that from the pic
Sebb wrote: Hmmm. the grate, when hit at an angle, doesnt have as much material to be hammered than a wall, which is solid.Would explain a few things aswell. plus, its width is acceptable. this might be a solution.
plus, back to the armour factor, what if the hole is very small and the back spot it just burnt armour? like if you flame a wall, it will leave black residue. i couldn't tell that from the pic
-- Edited by Sebb at 20:51, 2006-09-20
That is a possibility, it could also be cauterised blood, or the black undersuit. Either could be right, but the shot left a hard to see jagged edge indicating penetration, so we can scratch the burnt part. This leaves us with the last two options. Either can work.
