Ground War Scenario

Darth Tom · Benevolent Dictator

Ground War Scenario

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

Darth Tom wrote:

The Galactic Empire has found a world with valuable resources.

Problem is that the Tau own it. They have 2 million Fire Warriors, 10,000 Devilfish Troop Carriers, 3,000 Hammerhead Gunships, 2,000 Sky Ray Gunships, 500 XV88 Broadside Battlesuits, 500 XV8 Crisis Battlesuits, 30,000 Pathfinders, 600 Sniper Drone Teams, 1,000 XV25 Stealthsuits, 20,000 Vespid Stingwings, and lastly 3 million Kroot.

All are concentrated in a single continet where the resources are.

The Empire comes and establishes Space and Air Supremecy, how long do the Tau hold out.

I'd say about as long as it takes for an orbital bombardment to wipe out the ground troops and for the Ties to sweeps clear the skies. Shouldn't take more than a day.

Darth Tom · Benevolent Dictator

Cpl_Kendall, The Imperials want the resources intact, so minimal damage to Infrastructure to extract it. I'm looking for a drawn out infantry campaign with minimal Tie support.

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

What forces do the Imperials have at their disposal? And what are the capabilities of the Tau forces? Are their personal, squad and vehicle weapons upto the same level as the Imperial ones?

Darth Tom · Benevolent Dictator

Cpl_Kendall wrote:

What forces do the Imperials have at their disposal? And what are the capabilities of the Tau forces? Are their personal, squad and vehicle weapons upto the same level as the Imperial ones?

The Tau have ground weaponry on par with Clone War era tech. As for the Imperials, you have a Galaxy to call on. But, if you need more than 8,000,000 men, the Emperor will sign the bills.

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

Well this really depends, modern military planners dictate a three to one advantage to take a target that is dug in, six to seven to one if he is in an urban area. So this could see the Empire deploying anywhere from 6 million to 14 million troops to pacify the planet plus attendent vehicles, aircraft, starfighters, dropships, landers and Fleet assests.

-- Edited by Cpl_Kendall at 23:09, 2006-09-18

TheMuffinKing · Grunt

Are the Tau getting resupplied? If the Empire is blockading space then the ground force will run low on men and materials pretty soon if combat keeps up. Time is factored on two things: the size of the initial invasion force, and how fast it takes the Empire to establish a logistics chain. If there's a huge landing made by the Imperials, then I think the Tau would hold out for several weeks at most.

The Tau might be able to stop the Imperials from forming a beachhead, but not for long without resupply. If the Tau get the notice of the Empire et al, then they will last as long as it takes to build a new invasion force. That and many other factors...but still, I predict only a few weeks at most from what I read.

EDIT: must have skipped the Empire's space superiority, but still, a few weeks at most. A geurilla movement may last much longer if they can evade detection.

-- Edited by TheMuffinKing at 00:45, 2006-09-19

Basilisk9466 · Supermod, Voice of the Hive

Darth Tom wrote:

Cpl_Kendall, The Imperials want the resources intact, so minimal damage to Infrastructure to extract it. I'm looking for a drawn out infantry campaign with minimal Tie support.

Not gonna happen. TIE support is pretty ubiquitous - if they want things intact, sure they'll leave the bombers and Scimitars behind, but a squadron of Interceptors would rip the Tau defences to shreds without much collateral damage. Of course, a unit of Skyrays would help to counter this, but when the Imps see what they're up against, they're going to call in the TIEs.

The long discussions that went into creating the relative powers in Empires Collide (my WH40k vs SW story, for those who don't know) pretty much concluded that the Empire would get hammered by the Tau if you take away Imperial air superiority. Those Railguns would rip the AT-ATs to shreds in pretty short order, pulse rifles are about a match for a T-21 light repeater, Ion Cannons would destroy the light AT-STs and attack skimmers... wipeout.

The basic problem is that the Empire relies very heavily on vehicles, air support and the Stormtroopers. Rather like the Imperial Guard, you might say. Yes, but unlike the IG, Stormies aren't unlimited. Now, the TIEs (AFAIK) are superior, if not in resilience, then in agility and possibly firepower to most 40K aircraft. The AT-ATs are effectively miniature Land Raiders with much greater troop carrying ability, and the MAS-2xB Blaster Artillery makes most IoM artillery look like toys.

But that's precisely what the Tau like. As anyone who's played against them will know, using vehicles against them is suicide, as they all take at least one railgun.

So like I said, once the Imps get the measure of their opponents, they're suddenly not going to be so worried about infrastructure. After all, it can be rebuilt...

Darth Tom · Benevolent Dictator

Basilisk9466 wrote:

Darth Tom wrote:

Cpl_Kendall, The Imperials want the resources intact, so minimal damage to Infrastructure to extract it. I'm looking for a drawn out infantry campaign with minimal Tie support.

Not gonna happen. TIE support is pretty ubiquitous - if they want things intact, sure they'll leave the bombers and Scimitars behind, but a squadron of Interceptors would rip the Tau defences to shreds without much collateral damage. Of course, a unit of Skyrays would help to counter this, but when the Imps see what they're up against, they're going to call in the TIEs.

The long discussions that went into creating the relative powers in Empires Collide (my WH40k vs SW story, for those who don't know) pretty much concluded that the Empire would get hammered by the Tau if you take away Imperial air superiority. Those Railguns would rip the AT-ATs to shreds in pretty short order, pulse rifles are about a match for a T-21 light repeater, Ion Cannons would destroy the light AT-STs and attack skimmers... wipeout.

The basic problem is that the Empire relies very heavily on vehicles, air support and the Stormtroopers. Rather like the Imperial Guard, you might say. Yes, but unlike the IG, Stormies aren't unlimited. Now, the TIEs (AFAIK) are superior, if not in resilience, then in agility and possibly firepower to most 40K aircraft. The AT-ATs are effectively miniature Land Raiders with much greater troop carrying ability, and the MAS-2xB Blaster Artillery makes most IoM artillery look like toys.

But that's precisely what the Tau like. As anyone who's played against them will know, using vehicles against them is suicide, as they all take at least one railgun.

So like I said, once the Imps get the measure of their opponents, they're suddenly not going to be so worried about infrastructure. After all, it can be rebuilt...

Can you qauntify the Tau Weaponry's range and energy. Because the battle of Hoth was a long range engagement at 17.2 kilometers. The AT-ATs also withstood multi-kiloton shots from the Snow Speeders and shrugged them off. The few weak points that the AT-ATs had were well protected. BGTom had some photos of those weak spots.

"prods"

Basilisk9466 · Supermod, Voice of the Hive

Ok. No, I don't have exact energy stats for Tau weaponry, but I can do comparisons...

Rogue Squadron: Isard's Revenge

"Starting a run on the first AT-AT." Lyyr Zatoq, the Quarren, rolled her X-wing out to port, then let it swoop down in a glide that brought it in a diagonal slashing course on the last of the walkers. The machine's head slowly swung to the left to try to track the fighter, but she blasted away at it with her lasers at point blank range, then climbed hard and pulled out to the left, too fast and too tight for the walker to target her... Lyyr's shots had slagged armour on the mechanical beast's flank, but hadn't done any serious damage. Hobbie's attack ran from below the AT-AT's body on up to the back, and at least one shot holed the fuel tank. Flaming liquid streamed down like a tail, then an explosion tore the walker's back end open...
Coming back in and down, Wedge kept his X-wing very low, cruising in at a sharp angle. Tipping his fighter up on its port S-foil, he banked in toward the walker and switched over to dual fire. One double burst missed, but the second caught the walker in the hip. Tycho's shots on the same one hit the body above the drive motor, then the two of them climbed out, pulled a half-loop, inverted and dove back down at their target...
Tycho swooped his fighter through a run that pumped more hot light into the walker's hip. Black smoke began to issue from the joint. Wedge's attack followed Tycho's line and drilled four more bolts into the leg.
Superheated metal sprayed out, and the walker began to list badly to the left. The AT-AT's leg bent, then snapped off at the hip.

A little more effective than snowspeeder blaster cannons and the P-towers at Hoth, I think you'll agree. All four AT-ATs are destroyed in less than five minutes.

Now let's take a look at the 40K side. Things get a little dodgy here, I'll admit, because I'm relying on game mechanics... but said mechanics aren't far off accuracy.

Now, a Warhound Titan takes a lot of killing, with a lot of dice being rolled before it even gets to the penetrating hit chart. But nevertheless, a Tau Railgun can punch through (and potentially kill) the God-Machine with only a few shots. I seriously doubt that an AT-AT's armour is better than a Titan's - even if we do scale down railgun effectiveness, the AT-AT is still scrap metal if it gets hit enough times. I'll need to see some seriously good info to suggest that a railgun is inferior to an X-wing's lasers...

-- Edited by Basilisk9466 at 18:16, 2006-09-21

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

Game mechanics are non-canon, try again Basilisk.

Basilisk9466 · Supermod, Voice of the Hive

Basilisk9466 wrote:

but said mechanics aren't far off accuracy.

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

There still non canon, read the forum policy on 40K canon. If you can find figures on projectile weight and muzzle velocity than we can calculate how much force they would strike the target with but until then we're just guessing.

BGTom · Supermod. God of Doom

Well depending on the size, a rail gun can be between 20cms for infantry and 140cm for the Hammerhead Gunship. We do know that the round are fin stabilised sabot rounds with some ability to follow their targets.

We also know that they literly ignite the air around it.

We 60,000-120,000 kg*m/s (assuming a 1 or 2 m/s velocity) is enough to shove a Leman Russ several meters while a Leman Russ itself can shoot with a recoil of 190 tons or about equal to a 16inch Battleship gun. This indicates strong materials science.

In the Damocles Crusade a Leman Russ was hit by a Hammerhead railgun which punched clean through. The Turret was blown clear off and the crew distintergrated. I am still calculating the impact force so give me a day.

BGTom · Supermod. God of Doom

370,000 kg*m/s, was the speed of the rail gun round fired by the Hammerhead when it hit the Leman Russ. That would give it an impact equivalent to an X-wings shot. So it can penetrate an AT-AT with a good solid hit and most definitely make an AT-TE say uncle.

However, the Hammerhead has a low range of 9 kilometers and unless it has a hidden position, an AT-AT can spot it at a longer range and destroy it. But, the Hammerhead has the same range as an AT-TE and thus can fight a more even fight. This is where the Hammerheads mobility comes into play and gives it a bit of an edge in the open field against the AT-TE which although it has the same speed in a straight dash, it can not turn at that speed.

Basilisk9466 · Supermod, Voice of the Hive

Thank you, BG. I may have slightly overestimated the firepower of a railgun, but my points more or less still stand. Especially when you take into account Hammerhead agilty, as you said... the AT-AT may have longer ranged weapons with equivalent firepower, but it's still a slug to turn. Hammerheads may not be Eldar, but they've still got a good turn of speed on them. As any FPS player will tell you, the best sniper rifle in the world is no help if your target won't stop dodging...

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

Yeah tell that to the rebel snowspeeders who got shot out of the sky at Hoth.

BGTom · Supermod. God of Doom

Basilisk9466 wrote:

Thank you, BG. I may have slightly overestimated the firepower of a railgun, but my points more or less still stand. Especially when you take into account Hammerhead agilty, as you said... the AT-AT may have longer ranged weapons with equivalent firepower, but it's still a slug to turn. Hammerheads may not be Eldar, but they've still got a good turn of speed on them. As any FPS player will tell you, the best sniper rifle in the world is no help if your target won't stop dodging...

We all make first impression mistakes. Which is why we need to keep analysing the situation.

However, the agility factor only comes into play if the Hammerhead avoids head on confrontations with the AT-ATs which showed good suppression fire against Snowspeeders. They need to lie in ambush on the flanks. Once the Walkers are in the kill zone, the Hammerheads must nail the AT-ATs escorts first unless they want to be the butte of heavy return fire from AT-APs which are these

or the better known AT-ST. Once those are swepted away, then the Hammerhead can nail the AT-AT in the sides.

Cpl_Kendall · Mod.

Lets not forget that the Empire also has AT-AA's seen here, sure to deployed as part of any combined arms force the Empire will dispatch to the surface to deal with the Tau. Those should help deal with the Tau gunships and fighters.

-- Edited by Cpl_Kendall at 00:15, 2006-09-23